Boundless Curiosity
Boundless Curiosity
Untangling VUCA: Part 2 - Strategies for Thriving Amidst Chaos
In this second episode of our VUCA (Volatile, Uncertain, Ambiguous, and Complex) series, we move from defining the concept to discussing practical strategies for navigating such challenging landscapes. Listen in as we share insights on the importance of adaptability, self-awareness, and learning agility at both individual and team levels.
Lastly, we underscore the power of reflection and psychological safety in fostering resilient leadership and team dynamics. Drawing on Amy Edmondson's insights, we illustrate how creating a secure environment encourages risk-taking and learning. The Dimensions of Learning Organization Questionnaire (DLOQ) and the 70-20-10 model of learning are highlighted as tools for continuous organizational growth. Join us for an engaging conversation filled with practical tips to enhance leadership and organizational resilience in a VUCA landscape.
Whether you're a leader, team member, or simply curious about effective leadership, this episode is packed with valuable tips and thoughtful reflections to help you thrive amidst uncertainty.
Don't forget to reach out to us at boundlesscuriosity@outlookcom with your thoughts and suggestions!
Hello Jason, Really excited to jump into another episode with you today. How are you doing today?
Jason:I'm doing pretty well. How about you, Brandon?
Brandon:Yeah, great, it has actually been a few weeks since we last connected. I think you've been on vacation, maybe, so you're looking refreshed. Maybe even you still have a vacation shirt on there. What's going on on your shirt?
Jason:They're little campers, oh little campers. Always going to have a little flare, that's just the way I roll. But yes, I did take this on vacation. We were on a cruise. It was lovely. I don't know if I'm a cruise person, but I'm glad we did it. It was a very nice week. And how have you been?
Brandon:Yeah, everything's good. No cruises for me, although I have been on two and I may not do another one again. I'm not certain, but I'm probably not a cruiser either, and I feel like you could probably divide the world into cruisers and non-cruisers if you wanted to, because I've met some people who have done it 10, 15, 20 times, and then other people who have either done it none or done it once and said you know what? This is not for me.
Jason:Yeah, I think that's right, Given your background. I wonder if we could do some correlations between Hogan, or something like that, and people who love cruises or people who don't love cruises.
Brandon:Fascinating, so my hypothesis would be lower openness to experience less cruising action. I don't know if that's a real thing, but that would be my guess.
Jason:Oh, that's really nice. I like that. That's good. I went with low sociability, yeah. So I don't know if that maybe that's factoring in. I think I'm getting lower in my sociability as I get older.
Brandon:I that's factoring in, I think I'm getting lower in my sociability as I get older. I would agree I've only known you for two years, but that jabs with my experience.
Jason:Oh, you're seeing a downward trend.
Brandon:Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. But we are not here to talk about cruises today, believe it or not. For those of you who tuned in for that purpose, you can go ahead and shut us off now, if that's what you're here to listen to, because we are actually going to dive back into our second episode on VUCA. We talked last episode about the topic. Jason, I think you're going to run us through a little bit of what we talked about last time, so with that, I'll flip it over to you so I don't have to do it. Well, yeah, right.
Jason:I said I was going to do it and you said I didn't sound very confident. So I'm going to go into that, I'm going to embrace my lack of confidence, but we wanted to, just for those who haven't, definitely go back and read or listen to the previous episode, I think it was a really good treatment of this kind of foundational topic that Brandon and I see in our work in leadership, development, organizational development. So we talked about VUCA, what it stands for, right, volatility, uncertainty, complexity, ambiguity. We talked a little bit about where it came from origin, us military, you know, kind of kicked around some thoughts around like how relevant could it be? Like if we're applying it to war fighting and then all of a sudden we're applying it to, like you know, how organizations run, I think.
Jason:Think like we eventually kind of landed on like there's definitely merits to it, it definitely speaks to some dynamic that is relevant to leaders and organizations and I think that, you know, one of the things that jumped out to me from last time was really looking at VUCA through like a couple of different lenses. So, like you know, this idea of like complicated and complex, adaptive and technical challenges, things that don't have easy answers, were a couple of the areas where we spent a little bit of time just getting at why it's important in the world that we live in. And another piece that jumps out to me that I still think about is like is VUCA unique to the 21st century? And I think we both of us agree that it seems to be, you know, a passenger along on the human journey. It just happens to be a time of a really high volatility uncertainty, complexity, ambiguity. How was that? What did I miss?
Brandon:Jason, that was fantastic. Maybe people don't even need to listen to our previous episode. Maybe they should just listen to that two-minute soundbite. I think that really captures the highlights. In all honesty, there is so much in that previous episode that people really should check out. I think that's a nice recap.
Brandon:The one thing that I would add, and something I've really been sitting with since you and I last spoke, is is the concept still. Is it still serving us? And something that you and I talked about was that sometimes maybe we can use VUCA as a crutch. If a project doesn't go according to plan, if your team's not operating well, if your strategy for your organization is failing, I think some people just point and say, well, of course things for your organization is failing. I think some people just point and say, well, of course things didn't work out, because we're in this VUCA world and how can you navigate it and predict it? So there is this need to maybe acknowledge that it exists and also, let's still take some agency over how we're leading our teams, leading our organizations, despite the VUCA times that we are in.
Jason:I love that that you brought that back up. Like VUCA is a crutch right, Anytime you name something, you're always in danger of somebody taking and using it as an excuse for something else, so I probably do that as well somebody taking it and using it as an excuse for something else.
Brandon:So I probably do that as well. Yeah, yeah, that's an easy approach sometimes, I believe, to just point to that VUCA thing over in the corner and say, yep, that's why this project, this organization, this team is not being successful. And I think a lot of what we did last time, jason, is what I've referred to as admiring the problem. We spent a lot of time talking about, ah, vuca, here's what it is, here's how it's shown up in the past, here's how it shows up now. We talked about whether it serves us to really focus in on it so much, and the paradox is we're spending two episodes on this. So we do think that it is important for us to spend a little bit of time chatting about and today I believe we're shifting the focus a little bit on the conversation.
Jason:Yeah, yeah, and I think that's. I think you know, a topic like this does deserve to be split up a little bit, like there's a lot going on with it, and I our focus today I'm really excited about because we get to take that concept, we get to take that admiring the problem and then hopefully make it like practical and applicable Right. So well, we face a VUCA world, ok, so what? Well, what can we do with it? And I think that's where we're going to be today.
Brandon:Yeah, and I think we're still keeping to our idea that there are no easy answers on this podcast. So, while we will talk through some ideas, some suggestions, some ways to think about navigating in a VUCA landscape, the reality is that, jason and I, we don't have the decoder ring to where we can just show it and tell you exactly what you need to do in a VUCA environment, because the nature of a VUCA environment is there isn't that step-by-step guideline that you're able to just jump into and follow those directions.
Jason:You didn't get the decoder ring.
Brandon:I did not. Is that in the mail or something? I didn't check the mail yesterday. If I had that, do I need it for this episode?
Jason:Oh, probably not. I wonder if you have to buy enough sandwiches or something so that you get your punch card punched and then you get the decoder and you actually figure it all out.
Brandon:I was thinking more of a bottom of the cereal box type thing. I don't know if they even still do that now, but I imagine when you were a child, jason very similar for myself we were all about getting to the bottom of the cereal box because there was some little prize in there. Maybe it was a decoder ring that I have since lost.
Jason:Yes, yes. So I very much remember those and uh, and then, like happy meal toys, um, those, those were. Those were some of my favorites.
Brandon:Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah. So where do we go from here then? Happy meal toys, and I don't really know where to take it happy mill toys and I don't really know where to take it.
Jason:Well, you know, let me. Let me digress just a little further and say happy birthday, because, in addition to sharing a last name, we share a birthday as well, which just barely happened.
Brandon:That is absolutely true, thank you, and for me it was a milestone birthday, so I think I'm a couple of years behind you, but yeah, big 4-0 for me.
Jason:Congratulations. I don't know if mine's a milestone or not 45. So I can't say that I'm in my early to mid-40s now. Yeah, you're in your mid-40s now, Very well below 440.
Brandon:If we had to round, we would say that you were 50 instead of 40. Damn it. Well, I don't know if we're going to do that, just saying damn it. Well, I don't know if we're gonna do that, just saying, not saying we have to. But if we were to round we, we would be counting you in the 50 crowd, my friend.
Jason:That's one more piece of evidence why I don't like matt fair, fair.
Brandon:Yeah, well, we're good, so let's get into it. Let's talk about vuca and some of these practical tips. Where, where should we start?
Jason:well, you know, I I was, as we were prepared for this episode, I was struck by know how many, how you thought through it, like in sort of different levels and you know individual and then you know kind of going up more broadly. I definitely thought about it a little bit more from the individual level, so maybe we start there.
Brandon:Yeah, I like that individual level and something we've likely mentioned in the past, there's all these different levels of analysis. Where you go to look at a problem, you can very much focus in at the individual level. You can focus in at the team level. Maybe you're looking at the organizational level. I love to start. Let's start at the bottom and think individually. And before we do that, jason, something that I find fascinating about this VUCA concept is it's really an opportunity. If you're willing to lean into VUCA, recognize that it's there and maybe not use it as a crutch but instead use it as a strategic advantage, recognizing that VUCA exists and that you're going to take some very calculated and specific steps to navigate the environment, that this might actually be something beneficial for you in terms of how you perform and how you show up individually and with your team and organization.
Jason:Yeah, I mean almost like you know, it's like something that that can kind of set you apart in a way can kind of set you apart in a way.
Jason:Yeah, you know, when you were kind of introducing that concept, what came up for me was something that, like it was a long time ago I was applying for a job and really they were talking about ambiguity. You know, it was a lot of ambiguity, a lot of ambiguity, and it made me reflect on, like well, how do I, what do I think of ambiguity? And when it comes to I mean, when it comes to some things, I hate it. It makes me very uncomfortable. When it comes to other things at work, I often view ambiguity as a little bit of like an opportunity. It means like not everything has been figured out yet. There's a lot of space to try new things, and that gets me excited.
Brandon:Yeah, and I. I would think that someone who leans towards that way of thinking would be able to navigate VUCA much easier than someone who gets a little bit stuck. Maybe they're so planful, and maybe even rigid, that they don't know how to operate and be adaptable in those situations.
Jason:Yeah, I think that makes. I think that's, I think that's right, I think that makes a lot of sense. I think that's right, I think that makes a lot of sense and I think with a major caveat that like it really depends, right like in how VUCA shows up, whether or not that's something that, like, I view as an opportunity or as I view as happening, and what was going to happen was incredibly uncomfortable and it was something I didn't view as anything but like a really like something to be kind of a burden to be shouldered at the hard time, to be moved through. So it really does shift, I think.
Brandon:Yeah, thanks for sharing that, jason. And as we're thinking about, then, vuca at the individual level, those skills, competencies, how we're navigating it. Where have you seen, jason, that VUCA, those individuals who are able to navigate this VUCA environment very well? What sets those individuals apart?
Jason:Yeah, you know. So I have a couple of thoughts here. I mean. One of them is like, whenever, whenever we're approaching anything new, like whether it's change, and like a new challenge at work, like a new challenge in life, new opportunity, like to me like there's a lot of benefit in getting really like self-aware, like as much as possible, about like you know, you know what, what do I bring into this? Like, what do I need to be looking out for?
Jason:And I think, like one of the things when it comes to VUCA that I've seen is being really helpful, especially with, like coachees that I work with, is doing a lot of work around like what their values are, and you know there are lots of different ways to approach that. There are lists, you know, out on the internet, you know, with lists of values. I have a worksheet that I like to use, Lists of values. I have a worksheet that I like to use. I've seen like value sorts and whatnot, but it really is like taking an approach to get really clear on things that are deeply important to you and they often, you know, come down to five to seven.
Jason:You know, aware of those things, especially like in an uncertain, volatile environment, is really helpful when it comes to like decisions, Like if you've got a decision and there's not a clear answer. You know, being clear on kind of what your values say can help to guide you through that space. Um, you know, one of the values that I have is around like relationships. So when I think about um, when I think about like decisions that I make or like actions that I take, I'm often thinking about the impact that they're going to have on relationships. Um, so, like that's that's. It can be a double edged sword. Sometimes I can get a little paralyzed by thinking about those things, but I, but then that's where other values might come into place, like having an impact or something like that that might help me to kind of get dislodged when I get stuck. So values are a big thing that I see that are helpful to leaders, individuals navigating VUCA.
Brandon:I have been through your values exercise and workshop there, jason.
Brandon:That's certainly something in a future podcast We'll have to talk more about values, because I think it is so powerful.
Brandon:I think your values and kind of your mission statement and your why can serve as the North Star for you as you're navigating some of these difficult and challenging situations that you may encounter in a VUCA landscape, and also love that you highlighted self-awareness.
Brandon:Something that you and I have talked about in some of our developmental work that we do is that with awareness comes choice. When you're aware of those areas, those tendencies you have that serve you well and maybe don't serve you so well, you have some choice in how you choose to show up, and what's so fascinating about our individual strengths and personal challenges is that how they show up is so situational. Some of those very same things that made you effective in one scenario may actually hinder you in other scenarios. So, not only aware of your strengths, opportunities, your values, but also when they're serving you well and when sometimes they might challenge you also. So, for example, if you very much value stability, for example, value stability routine, being aware of that as it relates to working in a VUCA space, might help you bring some awareness of some angst you might be experiencing.
Jason:Yeah, really really good, really good point there, and I think like so that that awareness allows you to then put into place like different strategies and different actions to maybe get yourself a little bit of like routine or get yourself a little bit of structure, when there isn't a lot of like structure to be had, naturally, where things are shifting so much. So it, like I mean like the word, like the term kind of coping um comes up. It's not maybe the best word, but it it allows you like more moves to find, like to find ways to work within your preference.
Brandon:Yeah, really like that, jason, thanks.
Jason:Thanks for drawing that out, really like that, jason, thanks, thanks for drawing that out. The you know that, and that's that's not a bad segue into another one that I wanted to bring out for us, and that's like this idea of like, just like having a structured approach to solving a challenge, especially if it's one that has high complexity to it. You know, and and there's different ways to think about this. So one of the one of the ways that I'm a big fan of is design thinking, and so that's, like you know, human centered design is a big part of it, and it's about, like you know, another like. So like, having the like a person at the center of like thinking through a challenge, I think is really important. So, rather than like a process rather than like an outcome, rather than something, a process rather than like an outcome, rather than something like thinking, trying to think through it as much as possible for, like, what is the human impact going to be of this? So love that.
Jason:In terms of design thinking, and then the structure around the human often involves a couple of different phases. So, like, the first phase is a divergent phase, right? So, where you're gathering information and you think about this like brainstorming, right? So, putting all of the different possibilities on the table, all the different approaches on the table.
Jason:You bring in diverse perspectives, you know, and so you widen your aperture as much as possible and then you reach a point where you've got a lot of data and then you start the convergent phase, where you start to kind of select what pieces like might be the best match or might offer the most helpful way forward, and then you finally end up with something that isn't an end result, it's a prototype, and that prototype sets you into a put you in a position to then iterate and make that prototype even better. I love that in terms of a way of countering complexity, volatility, especially because if you, if you spend a bunch of time and you end up designing something and then everything changes, then you're kind of back to square one. But if you spend some time gathering a lot of data, understanding the problem, like coming into it with a really good, solid, human-centered design concept and you're in a position to iterate, then you're a lot more flexible and can kind of go with where the winds might be needing to take you.
Brandon:And as you talk about that, jason, I'm hearing a little bit of a paradox in some ways, because we're taking this environment, this situation, this VUCA problem that we're faced with and you may think about it as very disorienting and what you're doing is trying to build in some structure and a process into something that is very unstructured and very lacking of a process.
Jason:Yeah, no, I think that's a really good, it's a really good point. And, again, like, from my perspective, that's my like, if that's my approach to trying to create a little bit of something that I can hang my hat on right, just something that might be like a stepping off point into like what's next. And you know, I think what I try not to do is I try not to come at it in a way that's rigid, in fact I think you know. So, design thinking really great concept. If you haven't explored it, there's some good resources out there. Ideo is a company that really focuses on human-centered design and design thinking.
Jason:Another book that kind of gets at this concept as well as structure, is a book called Decisive by Chip and Dan Heath and Dan Heath and the reason I'm bringing this up is it's not that you're trying to put in place things that are immovable. It's a way of helping to kind of frame your thinking so that you're taking in more information, being a little bit more intentional about where you're going. So in that book they describe the WRAP process. So that stands for widen your options, reality, test your assumptions, attain distance before deciding and prepare to be wrong. And I just I love that in terms of just helping you kind of think through how you might approach like an ambiguous problem.
Brandon:Such a fascinating framework and I really appreciate your call out around not being rigid in how you're approaching the problem solving. You're treating it in a structured way. But you're also not rigid and you talked about the need to iterate as you're going through and implementing a solution and to me that would be a key in a VUCA environment. We talk about strategic planning where we have like a year-long plan or a five-year plan, for example. Like a year-long plan or a five-year plan, for example, you can't, in a very ambiguous and complex environment, have that five-year plan with the intention of not somehow adapting and evolving that plan as you're getting new information as market conditions change, as your organization changes. So I think that's a very important call-out that need to iterate changes.
Jason:So I think that's a very important call out that need to iterate. Yeah Well, and I love it. I mean, given your background, like I'd be curious like with that, like that five, that 10 year plan, like is that, is there any like I'm being I'm being a little bit of a punk here, but is there any benefit to like thinking out five to 10 years when we're talking about VUCA? Or is it like is it tilting at windmills, like what are we doing?
Brandon:Yeah, it's fascinating. Jason and I could easily make the argument for either side, and this is something I have thought long and deep about. One is no, you can't make a 10-year plan because the industry is so. There's so many disruptions in the industry that you can't anticipate things that are going to happen 10 years from now. So maybe you're just completely wasting your time.
Brandon:And where I have landed is, I think it is beneficial to go through that exercise. I think it is more the process of thinking into the future of where do you want your organization to be, what are the values, what are your strategies, and anticipating what could emerge in the future, with the recognition that you're not going to capture everything and that has to be a continuous process. But this goes back to that idea of sometimes maybe it could be a crutch, Maybe we as an organization could come in and say you know what we're strategic planning? We're not going to do that. Things are going to change too much and it's just a complete waste of time.
Brandon:Now, I suppose there probably are businesses that approach it that way and maybe it depends on your business and your values, and I'm not saying either way is right. But I still see the benefit of thinking through some of these decisions and doing some of that planning. We talked about this last time with the. You know, plan doesn't survive first contact with the enemy, but the other and the last quote I have around planning. And I don't know who said this, I'll Google it after I say it. I think it was plans are nothing but planning is everything. So it's really this idea that the plan is not going to survive and be executed in the way that it was sketched out. But that process of thinking through the actions you want to take is very beneficial.
Jason:Yeah, I think that's a really good point.
Jason:And you know you brought up paradox a few times. But, like you know, either not thinking strategic, not creating strategic plan, or creating a strategic plan, it's like you know both of those live at different ends of like. Uh, you know a polarity there and, like, what polarity theory would tell us is that, well, we probably need to be somewhere in the middle, right, we need to be both flexible and to your point, you know, the benefit of like, thinking about like things in the future, like that, that has its own result. And you know, and it's a little bit of like, I think, in the spirit of that convergent, that divergent phase of the process I described, because, like, even though you're not going to be spot on with where you're going to be in 10 years, it's that process of going through those different, diverse perspectives, like, you're probably learning a heck of a lot about. Like the options are like, what are the things you're willing to try, what are the things you're not willing to try, and you're better off for it afterwards. I loved how you described it.
Brandon:Well, a big focus of the leadership development work that we do is having people take bigger and broader perspectives, to look at things from multiple angles, and I think that planning would allow you to do that, and my quick Google search I don't know the accuracy of this suggests that Eisenhower said plans are worthless.
Jason:You look at a good quote and you get a 50% chance. It was Einstein. I think Eisenhower's up there too. Didn't people credit him with coming up with that Covey's Quadrants before Covey took it and rebranded it that?
Brandon:So I believe that urgency what is it? Urgency, priority, urgency, importance matrix, which is in the book Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. I believe it was Eisenhower that first came up with that idea, so when I teach it, I refer to it as the Eisenhower matrix, but I think many people attribute it to Stephen Covey. Stephen Covey and I don't know to what extent you talk about people having all of these quotes is are they really saying these things or are we just attributing it to these individuals? Because anytime I try and research a quote that I really like, it tends to get so muddy. Well, did this person really say it? Maybe it was that person and that's not actually what they meant.
Jason:So we'll call it out to eisenhower, but I think it's a very useful idea, regardless of who said it eisenhower had a great way of cooking a steak, which was throwing it right on the coals and if you can get by that being a terrifying prospect of like throwing probably a 20 piece of meat right in the fire produces a good result, does it.
Brandon:He didn't die of cancer by any chance, did he? Because? I feel like that is not like food that can't be safe with all the chemicals, I don't know. I think when you char your meat too much that's supposed to be bad for you. But that's actually my favorite part of the steak, that little charred piece to it.
Jason:Another paradox.
Brandon:Paradox yeah, okay to it. Another paradox Paradox yeah, okay. So back to VUCA at the individual level. The one thing I would emerge, jason, as we're talking about the values, as we're talking about some of the systems thinking, I wanted to bring up the aspect of being adaptable and agile, and the dissertation work that I did was actually on learning agility, which is a very prevalent concept that a lot of people have been talking.
Brandon:Defined is that it's taking and learning from your past experiences and applying those lessons, kind of extracting those lessons from that experience and applying it to new and novel situations. And that's actually I say that's how I've heard it defined. That is Lombardo and Eichinger, I think that actually coined the term learning agility. That, I believe, is how they define it back in 2000. So it's not that old of a term.
Brandon:But if you think about how quickly things are changing and that's part of a VUCA environment, right, that there's so much rapid change how we're doing our jobs right now, for the good majority of us it's going to look a little bit different five years from now. If we stop learning right now and just keep doing exactly what we're doing in five years, we're going to be obsolete the information, the knowledge that we have, isn't going to be applicable to the new landscape. So wouldn't it be useful to be able to take some lessons from your current experiences and the new situations come along and you're able to take some lessons from your current experiences, and then new situations come along and you're able to take those lessons and kind of extrapolate them to the new environment? So those leaders that are able to do that, or individuals, are thought to be learning agile, and I think that's a very important aspect of navigating a VUCA environment.
Jason:No, I never. I appreciate the way you described that, because I had never heard learning agility described the way you did. It made me think about like it being like it really. It's like it's tied to self-awareness and like because you're you're able to take information, experience from the past and then make meaning out of it in a way that you can then use it in the future, and I imagine there's a healthy degree of self-awareness that's created in that.
Brandon:Jason, have you been looking at my notes over there, or you've at least read my dissertation, I suppose? Because some definitions of learning agility not all, but it's kind of a multidimensional concept and I won't go too deep into it but some measures of learning agility have a self-awareness component in it. So that's actually something that's measured as part of some learning agility measures and I think it is very important.
Jason:You're going to hate me. I haven't read your dissertation. What?
Brandon:I'll have to get you a copy in the mail. When I get the decoder ring, I'll send the dissertation your way. You know I keep like 10 copies on the shelf, just when people ask about it I'm like, oh, you haven't read it. Here you go.
Jason:Here you go, and that's a that's a great idea.
Brandon:I mean, you wrote it like give it out. If nothing else, it can help you fall asleep at night if you're having sleeping troubles.
Jason:It works, so that learning agility. It reminded me of one other piece I wanted to bring into this and that's this idea of like, of intentionality. So, like you know, when you, when you approach a VUCA environment, a complex challenge, like intentionality with just being able to go at different speeds, you know, and I think like what made that come up is like you know that. So that agility piece Right, and what I noticed in leaders and organizations and teams today is that they, they have one gear, it's like gear five or six, and they're always trying to find a higher gear, but like what they lose is so many like other gears in the year box. And like to me, you know, if you've got a complex challenge, you like it's it's good to be in low, like it's good to slow down. It doesn't mean stop, it doesn't mean like get frozen in place, but I think like being able to downshift from time to time is a really, really powerful tool to be able to pull out in a VUCA environment.
Brandon:Yeah, when you said that, have you ever heard the saying? Maybe you have slow is smooth, smooth is fast.
Jason:Yes, I have.
Brandon:Yeah. So when I hear that I think about that. You want to move at an intentional pace to where things are actually you're making the correct decision, things are flowing smoothly, and to however quickly you can make things flow smoothly, then that's really as fast as you're going to be able to go. In that situation I was having a conversation with a leader just I think it was last week, and we were talking about the benefits, or I was harping on the benefits of reflection for learning that if you're going and as an adult, the way we learn is not necessarily just from experience, but we have to take that experience, we have to reflect on it, we have to challenge our assumptions, we have to think about different approaches and in that process of reflecting on experience, then we can learn from our experiences. So I was really harping on this need to be reflective and the leader kind of pulled me to the side and said, yeah, brandon, you know all this is great and I completely agree with it, but the reality is you don't know my job. There is no space to reflect, to take that step back, to pause and think about doing things differently and guide it, guide it. And I understand that and I think a lot of leaders would think that way, and the paradox is that until you're able to take that moment to reflect and think about it, you're not going to be able to be as effective and efficient as you could be. So it's through that reflection, through moving slower, that you're actually able to do it more efficiently.
Brandon:And I liken it to the analogy of sharpening the saw, and I'm sure you've heard this before. But my neighbor, he's over here, he's clearing out some land, and I'm looking out my office window and I see him and he's over there like sawing away. And look back an hour later and what do you know? He's still working on the same tree, trying to cut it down. So I pop over to the neighbor's house and I say, hey, what's going on? What are you doing? Yeah, clearing some land. Got to get all this clear by the end of the day today. And I'm like well, you've been working on the same tree for quite a while.
Brandon:Have you thought that maybe you should go sharpen your saw so that you could actually move a little bit faster in cutting the trees down? No, no, don't have time to sharpen the saw. I got to get this done. So the paradox is you take that time to sharpen the saw, to reflect, to think about how you're showing up. In action You'll actually be more effective and efficient. But most leaders would say, nope, don't have time to stop and do that. I got to get this thing done.
Jason:He didn't just say like get off my property.
Brandon:He said why are you just watching me out of your window? Why don't you get a saw and help me out here? No, he didn't, and you know probably he was agitated at that point. He had a saw in his hand, so it may not have been best to like approach him and critique his work. Yeah, you know, and I may have shouted it from across the street. I'm not even sure I went into a Jordan. Sharpen yourself. Yeah exactly.
Jason:Yeah, I think in that in there's that word paradox again and I think that's such an important word when it comes to VUCA is that you're often going to have these paradoxes where it's like you've got to slow down to eventually go faster.
Jason:You know I think we talked about this in a previous episode but this concept of like balcony and dance floor right, like people get stuck down on the dance floor doing the dance and they're dancing like crazy down there, but like sometimes, if you pop up to the balcony, you can see what's going on and then you're able to kind of you know, notice like, oh man, like you know, like there's all these other dynamics that are going on in the dance floor that I had no idea about, and then you can go back down to the dance floor and like do the dance better, um, so that's that, that's a the, the.
Jason:You know, the um. You know one concept I find helpful with vuka and it you know, all it takes is like being able to pop up to the balcony from time to time to make a point of the also. But what you just said is like reflection. Right, reflection doesn't mean, you know, taking a week off and going and sitting on a mountain somewhere it can be 10 minutes. I'm doing it wrong off and going and sitting on a mountain somewhere. It can be 10 minutes.
Brandon:I'm doing it wrong, Jason. I was just on the mountain earlier today. Why didn't anyone tell me that I could just reflect right here at my desk and take like five minutes?
Jason:Yeah, well, now you know and definitely still go to the mountain. But I mean like, really, like you know, five minutes, 10 minutes, get up, change your scenery, go outside, walk around a little bit, like think what you think about, what you need to think about, come back in and I guarantee there is a freshened perspective.
Brandon:I can get five minutes and just walk around the neighborhood and think about it, or maybe even on some of my phone calls, walk and talk. I think changing your scenery is so important. Maybe not going up a mountain, but just walking around the neighborhood will suffice.
Jason:Yeah, and if you get to the mountain, even better.
Brandon:Even better. Yeah, excellent, so any more. I think we've hit quite a few tips at the individual level and I know we've spent quite a few tips at the individual level and I know we've spent quite a bit of time on that kind of looking at the clock. Do we want to talk, maybe some team stuff, for a few moments before we wrap Anything else at the individual level, you'd recommend no, I think that did it.
Jason:I would say that I think a lot of what we talked about is applicable at the team level too. Especially if you're working with a facilitator or something like that, or if you're just the manager of the team and you want to bring a little bit more awareness into the team. It probably helps with the dynamics as well.
Brandon:Great call out, jason, because when you think about your values, that can certainly be done at the individual level, but you can talk about your team values, using that as a North Star, with self-awareness. Wouldn't it be good to know not just your individual strengths and weaknesses, but that of your team? I think a lot of times, as it relates to our own developmental journeys, we focus a lot on developing our weaknesses, but I like to encourage people to partner with other people. Look, if you're more action-oriented and not as good at strategic thinking, then a good balance is to partner with other people. Look, if you're more action-oriented and not as good at strategic thinking, then a good balance is to partner with someone who is a strategic thinker and you're very action-oriented, and you two can balance each other out, although drive each other crazy at times. So that's a possibility.
Brandon:Thinking about agility, that can certainly be done at the team level, and something I would like to pull out as it relates to teams is thinking about what is your team culture like, what is the environment that you're building? And, jason, I'll ask you this, as I often ask many people that I talk to culture about. I feel like it's a term we throw out quite a bit, but how would you define culture if you think about a team or an organization um like to me?
Jason:it's all the like, unspoken norms, like all the stuff that, like you know, I've heard it described as like the water that you're swimming in, right, and like, just like the like, the like. The fish doesn't think about the water right, but like it's experiencing it all around.
Brandon:That's how I think about it love that and I think certainly book answer. Like the unspoken norms, values, the history of an organization, the water that you're swimming in Sometimes we talk about like clean fish, dirty water. If you have really effective individuals in your organization but your culture is not so great, then they're not going to flourish. Sometimes I think about it just as the way we do things here, as an easy way to think about culture. It is the way we do things in an organization and a team. Here is the opportunity that I would call out in a VUCA environment.
Brandon:I have found and feel free to challenge me on this, jason, because I feel like it's a very military way of thinking, but I think the most effective, engaged, successful teams are those teams who have been through some type of adversity together and thinking about VUCA. It is an adversarial environment. There's a lot of volatility, uncertainty. It is not an easy environment to operate. So the opportunity here is if you can take a team and have them navigate VUCA successfully, whatever that situation looks like, and they emerge on the other end of that. I think it's actually going to make for a more cohesive and engaged team and you have to be very intentional with your team how you establish that culture, the norms and how you look at navigating that scenario. And I think about psychological safety. That would be the one I would call out as look, if you're in a VUCA environment, if you're trying to be adaptable, you're iterating, you're doing your systems thinking. You really have to set an environment that is psychologically safe.
Jason:I wouldn't challenge you. I love that you've linked the two, like culture and then adversity, because I think, like you know, if I think about my experience as a people manager, I've led teams that really thrived in adversity and like had that kind of like bonding that came together. And I've led other teams that really struggled and like probably others that would have disintegrated if they faced too much adversity.
Brandon:And if you had to think about the difference between those two things teams what is it that you think helps those teams emerge and navigate that adversity, versus those teams that fall apart? If you were to say psychological safety, since that's what I'm advocating for, that would be like bonus points to you, jason.
Jason:I was trying to figure out anything I could say other than psychological safety. But no, I mean, I do think, like, I think, if you're going to have this discussion, like trust, psychological safety, like there's some sense of like, there's some sense of rapport, of belonging of you know that like, I mean, like you've got each other's back and I think that that's all, like that's only possible when psychological safety is there.
Brandon:Yeah, and let's just define psychological safety for a moment for those of our listeners who may not be as familiar. It is creating an environment and a culture where team members feel safe to take risks, voice their opinions and maybe make mistakes without fear of being punished for those mistakes. And the idea actually emerged from I won't say emerged, I'll say was popularized by Amy Edmondson. She wrote a book called Fearless Organizations. It's really great. I think she probably has some TED Talks and some podcasts herself where she talks through psychological safety and it really being the differentiator and if you think about yourself on a team, you think about a team that's going through an uncertain situation. There is no clear answer for this to feel like they're able to voice their opinions, to contribute, to take risks, to maybe fail, and that they're not going to be punished for doing those things, for moving in the right direction.
Brandon:And to me, that is something that is so very important to navigating VUCA. You can have all of those individual attributes and I think they're all necessary, but when you bring people together, you really have to have the culture. Something you and I would have talked about is the idea that a person's behavior is really a function of that person and their environment. So we can take all those personal attributes, but we also have to build the right environment, and I think that was BF Skinner who came up with that, or was that Kurt Lewin? It's one of the two. I'll Google it. I'm fact checking myself as we go.
Jason:I'm going to go with.
Brandon:Lewin though.
Jason:While you're Googling, I'll just piggyback on something you said Failure happens in VUCA, right, there's no way to not fail in VUCA or to use structure or intentionality or self-awareness or strategy to avoid it, like it's going to be there. So you know, creating a culture where people aren't punished for it and where people learn from it, like where they use a little bit of reflection, like that's absolutely critical. So I just wanted to make that point because I think it is a really good one.
Brandon:Yeah, and if you think about any major accomplishment, there are bumps, bruises, failures along the way, especially if you're thinking about iterating that there's going to be some unforeseen circumstance. So really making sure that you're able to continue to push forward despite that failure and adversity and as I Googled, it actually was it's Kurt Lewin that said it and it looks like it goes back to the 30s maybe but a pretty popular idea in social psychology that it's not just we focus on the person a lot of times and how they're behaving, but making sure that we're recognizing the influence that the environment has on them as well. And as leaders, what's very important about this is that leaders set the environment. If you think about your role as a leader of a team, of an organization, how are you leading and setting the environment where people are able to flourish?
Jason:Yeah, I heard there's a saying I don't know who said it, but leaders create the weather. So, like what kind of weather do you want to create on your team? Is it dark and stormy all the time? Is it overcast and gloomy, or, like, are we looking for some, like you know, bluebird sunny days here?
Brandon:Yeah, love that, and I think I saw on LinkedIn a picture of like a leader, like holding an umbrella over their team, and that's what I really liked. It's, to some extent, we have to shelter our team members from some of the chaos and VUCA that is occurring in the organization and thinking about how you can deliver that message to them and not increase or create confusion or amplify it.
Jason:Yeah, yeah, really great point.
Brandon:All right, I feel like I're. I could talk about this for the rest of the day, and we've also committed to keeping these episodes around 45 minutes, so I think we're getting close to the end of this episode. What else should we mention here before we close it out, jason?
Jason:Well, I know you had you had some um like bigger picture thoughts on on organizations and systems. Was there anything that you didn't get to that you wanted to share?
Brandon:Yeah, just briefly. Thanks for the reminder. We won't spend too much time here. Maybe it'll be a topic for a future episode. But as we're thinking about how to approach problems, something I would love for our listeners to start thinking about is taking broader perspectives. Back to your idea of getting up on the balcony as you're progressing through the organization leadership, you have to move beyond the individual level. You have to even move beyond the team level at times and think about broader as an organization. What is the environment and culture that you're trying to create?
Brandon:And as I was thinking about VUCA and organizations that can navigate it successfully, as I was thinking about VUCA and organizations that can navigate it successfully, the idea of a learning organization popped up to me and the importance of an organization making iteration, learning improvement, part of their strategy and gaining a competitive advantage through that. And my advisor for my dissertation she actually wrote a lot on learning organizations. Her name's Karen Watkins, so if you have any interest in checking out her work, she did some work with Victoria Marsik, who's out of Columbia. They really looked at learning as a strategic advantage. They had a measure it's called the DLOQ Dimensions of Learning Organization Questionnaire that you can take, thinking about your organization and think about to what extent is a learning embedded into the strategy of your organization. Back to this idea of strategic planning. If you're being strategic in how you're approaching the future, if you're able to embed learning adaptability into that, I think it would serve you very well as a organization in our current times.
Jason:And I love that you brought in the learning organization concept and I mean, you know to me like you're thinking about different ways of thinking about how people learn, right Like 70, 20, 10, right, 90% of it supposedly happens on the job. So, like to me, being a learning organization is being really intentional about noticing the learning moments that are around you and like you can then take it down to a team level and say, like well, is your culture kind of like ready for that Like, is it like being intentional about like noticing the learning? Or, if you're a leader, if you're a manager, are you helping people connect to the learning that's around them? Because to me, that's a big part of like I mean like for to be a learner. You got to notice the learning.
Brandon:Yeah, and so much of learning is social. So I appreciate that you're talking about connecting it. And that 70-20-10 for those listeners that aren't familiar is the idea that 70 percent of our learning comes from experience, 20 percent comes from learning from others, and I think it's meant to think about like coaching and mentoring and then only 10% of our learning comes from formal classroom experience. Now here's what I love to say about like models and theories such as that. All models are wrong. Some models are useful. Is it that exact percentage? Of course not. Does it differ by individual? Of course it does, but the big takeaway is we can only learn so much in the classroom, and especially when we're thinking about how rapidly things are moving. You go get a degree and as soon as you graduate, what you've learned is already obsolete to some extent. So you have to continue to learn from your experiences, to grow, to adapt and develop, and it is really the key to flourishing in this VUCA environment.
Jason:Great call out.
Brandon:I may have got my percentages wrong there, but the spirit of it was right, yeah, and what's fascinating tangent here is 70-20-10 is very popular, but if you were to go back to the people that those percentages are originally attributed to, they say that that is not at all what they were trying to say with that original quote Back to our idea that quotes are sometimes nonsense, but I still think it is a very useful way to think about how we learn.
Brandon:to bucket it, to think about learning from experience. I find that it is very important, but there are key ways to do it to make sure that you're continuing to learn and grow, because sometimes when we think about experience, we think about the number of years somebody's been doing something. Like I have 30 years of, you know, working in the leadership development space. And, at the risk of being brash, what I always say is look, just because you have experience in doing something doesn't mean you can do it well. If I have 20 years experience being a complete idiot in my job, then that doesn't mean that I'm going to be successful in the job.
Jason:Yeah yeah, I've got like 40 years experience trying to fold fitted sheets. I still can't do it.
Brandon:Fair, fair. I don't know that I could do any better there. Jason, of course I have less experience since you are the elder Smith.
Jason:Yes, yeah, you're well, but clearly that didn't make any difference.
Brandon:Not in this scenario, but okay, great. I feel like this has been a fabulous conversation. For those of our listeners who would love to reach out to us, we just remind you you could find us at our email address boundlesscuriosityatoutlookcom. Shoot us a note. We'd love to hear your ideas, suggestions and really appreciate that we have this time together. Jason, I'm looking forward to connecting again in a few weeks, yeah it was good seeing you today. All right, thanks a lot. All right, bye.